Dr Louise Newson: [01:00:00] So you might have to listen to this podcast more than once. I'm with Marie Lyon and we talk about the Primodos scandal. This was a pregnancy test that contained synthetic hormones that are still in today's contraceptives. We talk about the harm, the increased incidence of congenital abnormalities and how long it took for the government to actually stop this pregnancy test being available. So what you're going to hear is true, but it's also very shocking. So I'm not going to say enjoy it because I don't think you will, but I think you'll end up feeling quite angry like we both are today. So Marie, I'm very excited that you're here. I, there's a lot to talk about in this podcast and people might have to listen to it more than once if they've not heard of Primodos or the Primodos scandal, and I didn't know about it. Everyone's heard of, or most people have heard of the thalidomide scandal. Where they were giving a drug that hadn't been tested on unborn foetuses to women. It was a morning sickness drug, wasn't it, thalidomide. So you'd think after that scandal, and it was an error really, that people would really be on hyper-alert and not want to give anything that hadn't  been tested in pregnancy to women, wouldn't you? But this Primodos scandal happened after the thalidomide scandal didn't it? [01:01:22][82.1]
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Marie Lyon: [01:01:22] Immediately afterwards, and that's really, I think, the most shocking thing that thalidomide had literally just about waned a little bit. And they'd still put that drug out. And you just think, well, why? I think with thalidromide as well, if you remember, that was for morning sickness, it had a therapeutic value.  [01:01:42][19.8]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:01:42] Well, this is right. So this is very different, which we're going to talk about.  [01:01:45][3.3]
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Marie Lyon: [01:01:46] Extremely different, yes.  [01:01:46][0.7]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:01:47] So thalidromide was a morning sickness drug, wasn't it. And it was given in good faith and it's very easy to criticise. It's really easy with a retrospectoscope to go, how ridiculous. But at the time, you know, you can see why that happened. But Primodos was a pregnancy test, wasn't it? So before Primodos, what do they do? Some people will know, some people won't, for a pregnancy test? [01:02:10][22.8]
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Marie Lyon: [01:02:11] It was a urine test and that urine test then went off to a lab and they actually tested it on frogs. So you know there's a big kind of joke thing about it, oh gosh it will take so many days. Who cared really, all you wanted to know was were you pregnant. It wasn't something that was urgent at all.  [01:02:32][20.6]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:02:32] No, it wasn't something that you needed the diagnosis then and there and they would inject the urine into the frog, and if the frog made eggs then the pregnancy, but it was expensive as well I think wasn't it? [01:02:43][11.7]
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Marie Lyon: [01:02:43] It was, in comparative terms with Primodos, yes it was. But it was non-invasive, you know, there was no risk to it whatsoever. [01:02:51][7.7]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:02:52] It wasn't harming anybody because you're giving your wee to somebody to do whatever you like on, so it was quite different. So before we say about actual Primodos, I just want to go back in time a bit with hormones, because there is still confusion now what hormones are and what they are not, and I really want people to listen and understand, and lots of my listeners do know, but when they discovered estradiol, progesterone and testosterone many years ago in the late 30s, they saw their chemical structure. And the first type of hormone treatment was actually made from pregnant women's urine, because as we know, pregnant women produce have hormones in their urine. But you could buy that over the counter and people, the pharmaceutical companies wanted something they could market. So very quickly, they worked with gynaecologists and paid gynaecologists to work with them and scientists, but they made a synthetic version.  [01:03:46][54.6]
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Marie Lyon: [01:03:47] They did.  [01:03:47][0.1]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:03:47] And it wasn't estradiol. It wasn't progesterone. It was a synthetic version and even testosterone, they did the same. But for estradiol and progesterone, and there's only one type of progesterone, with estrogen, there are different types of estrogen, but the estradiol is the one we prescribe as bioidentical hormones, which is a good type of estrogen. So they quickly made a synthetic type of estrogen called ethinylestradiol and different synthetic progestogens. But one of the synthetic progestogens was norethisterone, wasn't it? [01:04:20][33.4]
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Marie Lyon: [01:04:20] It was.  [01:04:21][0.2]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:04:21] So they then started to test them on the womb, not of pregnant women, but just of the womb because they wanted to stop bleeding because they thought, wouldn't it be great if women didn't have heavy periods, which you could argue, yes, great. But then they thought oh, we could use that as contraception. So there was all this going on in the, well, even during the war a bit and then in the 50s, there was lots of tests always on the womb. Then they got it to market as a, not as a contraception actually, it was just for bleeding, wasn't it? But they did say, but you might not get pregnant on it because women, they knew that if your womb is very thin, how are you going to get pregnant. So after a year, they changed the licensing. And in my mind, this is a scandal on its own because the contraceptives all contain synthetic hormones with ethinylestradiol. They did use a higher dose, but they'd never tested this synthetic hormone chemical on the brain, on the other cells in the body, the other tissues in the body. We've got hormone receptors for our own hormones everywhere, every single cell. But we've also got hormone receptors on the nucleus and in the DNA as well. And our DNA obviously is something we transfer, our genetic material, to offspring, don't we? So there's lots of, and even today in 2026, there are uncertainties about the contraceptive pill, what it's doing. So this is really important for people to know. But then they wanted to extend the market of the contraception. So then they thought, well, why, if it's going to do something to the womb and stop bleeding or whatever, let's give it to pregnant women. And that's where the Primodos pregnancy test came out. So what was in Primodos?  [01:06:10][108.9]
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Marie Lyon: [01:06:11] It was just the synthetic hormones, as you say, and it was quite, well, it was a fairly high dose, it's not as high.  [01:06:17][5.7]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:06:17] But it wasn't mega high though, was it?  [01:06:19][1.7]
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Marie Lyon: [01:06:19] Not particularly, but remember that was coming really at a time when you were just pregnant and I would imagine the effect on a foetus that was literally just developing.  [01:06:32][12.8]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:06:32] You've got these rapidly dividing cells in the foetus. So it was ethinylestradiol and norethisterone, wasn't it? And it was a combination tablet.  [01:06:41][9.1]
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Marie Lyon: [01:06:41] It was.  [01:06:42][0.2]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:06:42] So if someone thought they were pregnant, it wasn't just once though, was it, that it was given?  [01:06:48][5.6]
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Marie Lyon: [01:06:51] The majority of times it was actually because it was, well for me in particular, I'd gone again just thinking I was going to have a urine test hoping I was pregnant, first baby and I was, I think I was quite delighted actually when he just said, well you just need to take this tablet and then you will know, two tablets, you will know within a matter of days whether you're pregnant or not and I just said oh okay then. It wasn't kind of oh great you know I'll know in a few days.  [01:07:18][27.4]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:07:18] So did you know what was in the tablet?  [01:07:19][1.2]
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Marie Lyon: [01:07:19] No idea, he didn't tell me.  [01:07:20][1.4]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:07:21] So you took the tablet and then what did he say, if you bleed, then you're not pregnant. [01:07:24][3.2]
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Marie Lyon: [01:07:24] Yes, and if you don't, you're pregnant and then just, you know, sign on for the clinic, etc. So I went away quite happily thinking, well, that's from my own GP, you know, I didn't even ask, was it safe. That was in 1970.  [01:07:40][15.6]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:07:43] So it had been out for a little while, hadn't it? [01:07:45][1.8]
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Marie Lyon: [01:07:45] It had, it had been out since 1967. In fact, before then really, but we knew about it more specifically around 1967. But I think it was just, I never even thought when Sarah was born that it could have had anything to do with those tablets because they were from my GP. He didn't say don't, you know, just be careful taking these. It was, oh no, this is a much better way, you can know quite quickly. But speed wasn't really something that I was interested in. And I don't think any of our members were. We just wanted to know when they were ready, are we pregnant. So no, there was no discussion whatsoever. [01:08:26][41.2]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:08:27] Because back then, obviously, in the 70s and 60s, there was no internet, there was no way of looking anything up. You didn't really question your doctor anyway back then did you?  [01:08:37][10.4]
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Marie Lyon: [01:08:37] I was going to say, so we wouldn't have asked anyway. I wouldn't've thought of looking it up because it was from my GP. And you know, the basic thing is that they're there to look after you. And we weren't ill, you know we were just pregnant. So you don't kind of look at that as some kind of medication. It was a test, pure and simple. What we didn't know was that we were the guinea pigs. And we were the ones that were being tested on, because it hadn't been tested on women. They'd done a very small test for a year and one for a year and a half, and that was on animals. So it was actually an untested drug and the people that were testing it on, people like me.  [01:09:16][39.3]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:09:17] But you see, it hadn't really been tested properly on non-pregnant women, like I say, on the other tissues, that all the experiments were really on the womb. So they didn't know the effects on the fully formed woman, if you like, with her brain and her heart and her kidneys and liver. But they're giving it to somebody with a foetus, with rapidly dividing cells, not long after the thalidomide scandal showed...  [01:09:44][27.0]
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Marie Lyon: [01:09:44] Immediately after.  [01:09:45][0.5]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:09:45] That this drug, any drug gets in very quickly to rapidly dividing cells and can be harmful, so they gave it and then what happened then?  [01:09:57][11.9]
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Marie Lyon: [01:09:57] But the thing is, as well, with thalidomide, at the thalidomide trial, there were three other drugs that were mentioned that may have been the cause of thalidomide, and one of those was Primodos.  [01:10:09][11.3]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:10:11] Oh really? [01:10:11][0.3]
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Marie Lyon: [01:10:11] So it's not that they weren't aware.  [01:10:12][1.1]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:10:13] So they were aware that there was a potential.  [01:10:14][1.7]
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Marie Lyon: [01:10:14] Yes, there were already problems with it, and that was around the time of thalidomide. So common sense would tell you that they would think, whoa, hang on, we better maybe do some more testing. But the problem was, Louise, it was very, very lucrative.  [01:10:29][14.7]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:10:30] So who was making money from it then?  [01:10:32][1.6]
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Marie Lyon: [01:10:32] The drug company.  [01:10:33][0.5]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:10:34] So that was Schering, wasn't it?  [01:10:35][1.0]
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Marie Lyon: [01:10:35] It was, Schering and now Bayer Schering as they are. So they can't even say that they weren't aware, they were aware.  [01:10:42][6.9]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:10:43] Well, we know that now, but we didn't know that at the time.  [01:10:46][3.3]
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Marie Lyon: [01:10:47] No, not at all.  [01:10:47][0.3]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:10:48] I don't know whether GPs made money from it at the time? [01:10:50][2.1]
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Marie Lyon: [01:10:50] They were incentivised. We've tried to find out how much by, but they were incentivised. I mean, it's like today sometimes, today isn't it where they say to a GP, oh you can come to a conference or, and in a way it's an incentive.  [01:11:04][13.6]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:11:05] Yeah, so there was some incentive as well.  [01:11:07][1.9]
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Marie Lyon: [01:11:07] There was an incentive, yeah.  [01:11:08][1.2]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:11:09] So then, so you took it early in your pregnancy, you found out you were pregnant, you carried on with your pregnancy. [01:11:14][4.9]
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Marie Lyon: [01:11:15] I was quite healthy during it as well. I didn't have any problems at all. And then when Sarah was born, her arm was missing from just below the elbow and there was just a tiny little pad and five little digits, which obviously should have been the hand and the fingers, that had been stopped immediately at a specific stage. That's what we found out later. And even then I did not connect the two because all they said to me was, these things happen and you accept it and that's fine. [01:11:44][28.7]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:11:44] They didn't have scans like now, there's so many ultrasound scans, so you wouldn't have been prepared or anything. And so then when did you think about it?  [01:11:55][10.2]
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Marie Lyon: [01:11:56] Well, that was when the organisation started, the Association for Children Damaged by Primodos, and that was in 1978 that we were fully aware of what had happened. And that's when we tried to fight back and just find, what we wanted to know was why. Why did they not stop it? And then, of course, when we found the documents and found out that they'd known about it since the 1960s and hadn't stopped it, the regulator hadn't stopped it.  [01:12:28][32.3]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:12:28] It's quite shocking, I mean it's not quite, it's extremely shocking and I was doing some research about synthetic hormones and the history because I think history is really interesting actually. So I learned all about the manufacturing of synthetic hormones and some of the things that were done and that really shocked me and then Primodos came up and I thought what's that? I've never heard of it, obviously I was born in 1970 so...  [01:12:50][21.8]
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Marie Lyon: [01:12:51] You're so lucky.  [01:12:51][0.6]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:12:52] Yeah, well I am, but it's really interesting because then I read, I watched the documentary, which is on Sky News wasn't it. But it's on YouTube. So anybody can see it. And it was, I always work late at night. It was far too late at night, but I started watching it, but I couldn't watch it once. I had to watch it twice because I didn't believe it because it was so shocking. And I'm very frustrating because I always ask questions. So when I watched it, I then had to go off and read some papers, I then had to go and find some news reports. And then I was really digging into Bill Inman, who, so Dr william Inman was the, he was head of the committee of safety of medicine.  [01:13:36][43.9]
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Marie Lyon: [01:13:36] He was, he was the regulator basically.  [01:13:38][2.0]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:13:40] Yes and so a lot of doctors, if they're listening, might know the yellow card scheme. So, and he created that really, didn't he? So if there's, which is a good thing.  [01:13:48][7.8]
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Marie Lyon: [01:13:48] That's debatable.  [01:13:48][0.2]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:13:49] Well, yes. But we can say if there is a concern, like for us as doctors who aren't involved in regulation, aren't involved in research, if we saw a patient that had a reaction to a drug, then we would fill it out and think, well, at least somebody's looking at it. So for me as a doctor, I thought, well I'm doing my bit. What I didn't realise that self-reporting of things is so hit and miss. You can't do proper research on that. But anyway, he was doing that, which is something compared to nothing that had happened before, but he was also very pro the progestogen only pill and the contraceptives because around that time they started to realise there were problems with contraceptives because the studies that had been done before going to market. were on a higher dose, a lot of women had had clots and strokes and heart attacks and a lot of women in poor countries like Puerto Rico.  [01:14:40][51.0]
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Marie Lyon: [01:14:40] Which they knew about.  [01:14:41][0.4]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:14:41] Which they know about. And they tried to stop, you know, some people were saying, gosh, this is a concern. And then the people that were doing the main, a lot of the experiments were saying no, no, we'll push it to market, push it to market. So it came to market but then they thought, well, ethinylestradiol, there's a problem with that. And I mean, it was a bit later, 1979, the World Health Organisation said it was a carcinogen, so linked with cancer. So then they tried to push out the progestogen only pill and say it was safe. So the progestogen only pill, one of them is norethistrine, that is in Primodos. So Bill Inman didn't want anyone to think there was a problem with the progestogen only pill or any type of contraceptive. And it was interesting because Sir Richard Doll, who noted, some of you I'm sure listening will know, Sir Richard Doll was an amazing epidemiologist that associated the link between smoking and lung cancer. But it took eight years for anyone to listen because everyone was chain smoking in the government and the health authorities then. But then he was a great epidemiologist. So he noticed there was a clot risk with progestogen only pills and a problem. But no one really wanted to listen. But because he had that name, I think they did give him a bit of respect. But there's a lot of correspondence, you have to look quite hard for it and I did, and I know you've seen it too. And with Bill Inman, he had a bit of a dilemma because if he put out a warning about Primodos, then the same warning would apply to the contraceptive pill.  [01:16:13][92.5]
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Marie Lyon: [01:16:14] That's right and that is exactly what propelled the whole horrible debacle really of keeping that pill on the market for 20 years after the first warning. [01:16:23][9.3]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:16:24] So the first warning there was a paper wasn't there written do you want to explain, it was written in Nature Journal wasn't it by, what's her name professor... [01:16:33][9.5]
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Marie Lyon: [01:16:36] Isabel Gal, she was absolutely magnificent. She had worked at a hospital and she had noticed that of the patients that she'd been seeing that there was a high propensity of either miscarriages or abnormalities. And she looked at 100, I think women, found that the ratio was just too high to be a coincidence, went to Dr inman and just said, look, this is a real problem, I have real life experience, you know, I have the women, I can tell you who they are, and he basically called her a sad little woman.  [01:17:11][35.4]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:17:12] I know. But he didn't, it's in a letter, that's what's so incredible.  [01:17:17][5.2]
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Marie Lyon: [01:17:18] It is.  [01:17:18][0.2]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:17:19] Because I showed that letter on the theatre tour.  [01:17:21][2.6]
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Marie Lyon: [01:17:22] You did.  [01:17:22][0.3]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:17:23] Because there's one thing saying something, but there's another thing putting it in writing. And they basically wanted to silence her. And she was...  [01:17:31][7.9]
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Marie Lyon: [01:17:31] They did silence her.  [01:17:32][0.8]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:17:32] Yes. And she very much, I think there's a problem. She wasn't saying it's a hundred per cent is because you can never know but she was warning people. And when someone warns you, when it's a drug, you should really be looking into it. So what Bill Inman did was he went to Schering to warn them, didn't he? [01:17:52][19.8]
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Marie Lyon: [01:17:52] Yes.  [01:17:52][0.0]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:17:52] Rather than going to the public to warn them. [01:17:53][1.0]
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Marie Lyon: [01:17:53] Yes, and that again is in writing, you know, where he says, I'm just giving you the heads up now, that you know we need to try and contain this basically, because it will affect the oral contraceptive pill. So, and the World Health Organization sadly also complied, because what they said was we cannot afford a world health population explosion if women stop taking the Pill. But no one actually thought of the impact on the lives of those women, and I'm not just talking about us now with Primodos, I'm talking about the oral contraceptive and the fact, as you've rightly said, early on they knew it was causing strokes, they knew it was causing cancer, but they insisted, it was such a money spinner Louise and that's a horrible thing to have to kind of accept that what this was all about was profit. And the fact that Bill Inman obviously had a very close relationship with Schering. We do believe that they did fund his further studies, if you like, because he did leave shortly afterwards. So it's the fact they were so complicit in denying, if you like, the damage. [01:19:11][77.9]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:19:12] Well, this is what shocked me because, you know, as a doctor, you have a duty of care.  [01:19:17][5.5]
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Marie Lyon: [01:19:18] Yes.  [01:19:18][0.0]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:19:19] And the duty of care is the most important thing of being a doctor. It really is. You know, I always want to do my best for my patient, but you're always limited by knowledge. And if you don't have the knowledge, at the time, you think what you're doing is right.  [01:19:32][13.1]
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Marie Lyon: [01:19:32] Of course.  [01:19:32][0.0]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:19:32] So your GP, I'm sure would have thought what he was doing was the right thing,.  [01:19:36][3.4]
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Marie Lyon: [01:19:37] I think he did, yes.  [01:19:37][0.8]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:19:37] Because he didn't question, didn't ask, whatever. But once you know something your duty of care has to change because it has to change on new knowledge. And so when you read this, and so there were, the other thing, there were lots of abnormalities.  [01:19:51][13.6]
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Marie Lyon: [01:19:52] Dreadful abnormalities.  [01:19:52][0.0]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:19:52] So, you know, we've got some pictures here, but a lot of them were limb abnormalities, but also cleft palate, heart defects.  [01:20:05][12.3]
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Marie Lyon: [01:20:05] Limbs.  [01:20:05][0.0]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:20:06] Limbs, yes. People born without brains.  [01:20:09][2.8]
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Marie Lyon: [01:20:09] Yes, that was so hard to take.  [01:20:11][1.9]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:20:12] Really hard, but when I was reading this and I was thinking about it. I was in primary school in the 1970s. There was always one or two children in the class that had cleft lip and cleft palate, always. Spina bifida was really common back then.  [01:20:28][15.7]
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Marie Lyon: [01:20:29] That was another one.  [01:20:29][0.2]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:20:29] You talk to people my age and they all know what spina bifida is. If you talk to my children, I don't think they'd know. And also cleft lip and cleft palate is just not so common. And when I read about it, I sort of said to my husband, oh, this is so shocking. He said, oh yeah, but then they used to put folic acid into bread and they give folic acid, and it was all of that that changed. I said, really, do you really think so? Because maybe it has, but what, you can't ignore this. And that's where I was really surprised because so many women then came out more but it went on for so long and not just in the UK as well there were other countries  [01:21:09][40.1]
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Marie Lyon: [01:21:11] Germany, particularly and that's where Schering actually had their headquarters. It was shocking again that they would actually consider, you know, making this drug, letting it be actually sold in the country that they were actually from.  [01:21:27][15.1]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:21:27] So despite the warnings, despite this trying to cover up it was still being given as a pregnancy test.  [01:21:33][6.1]
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Marie Lyon: [01:21:34] 20 years after the first.  [01:21:35][1.2]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:21:36] 20 years.  [01:21:36][0.5]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:21:37] It's millions of women actually isn't it.  [01:21:39][1.8]
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Marie Lyon: [01:21:39] It is millions of women and that the awful thing is that a lot of them are not aware. I've had phone calls up until last year, early last year where someone said look I've just found out about Primodos my daughter/son whatever was born at this date I've actually had to, you know, live with the dreadful injuries that they've had. Is there any possibility? And I've just said, go to your GP, try and get your notes. And luckily a lot of GPs have kept them, which is good. And what have they found? They took Primodos.  [01:22:14][34.6]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:22:15] Yeah.  [01:22:15][0.0]
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Marie Lyon: [01:22:15] So they've had, all those years, nearly 50 years, like we all do, you blame yourself. Did I eat something wrong? What did I do? And that's what they say to me. I can't take this in. But they then do what we all and think, well, it's our fault. It isn't. And I know that realistically.  [01:22:34][19.0]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:22:36] There was also the diethylstilbestrol scandal, which is DES, which was another synthetic estrogen. And they actually started to give that to poultry to fatten up chicken. And then they realised that some of the poultry farmers were getting breast enlargement and infertility. So the poor men, obviously, they did something very quickly then...  [01:23:02][26.3]
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Marie Lyon: [01:23:02] Well they would...  [01:23:03][0.1]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:23:03] ...but they still carried on giving it to people. It was supposed to enhance the pregnancy. I mean, some of the adverts for it are crazy. But then they realised there was an association with the children with vaginal cancer, a type of cancer called clear cell carcinoma and we learned about this at medical school. And it was always the DES clear cell carcinomal unusual type of cancer. But I never thought properly about it. It was just one of the, in medicine, you just learn things. Okay, da-da-da. But then they don't use DES anymore. It's occasionally used for men with prostate cancer, very rarely, but it's not used. So it's a bit like thalidomide. It's a drug occasionally used, but it really strict and you don't really prescribe it. So I sort of think, like I said earlier, in medicine you move on. You learn, you say, I'm sorry, this happened, but we had limited evidence, we move on, and so I sort forgive the DES and I forgive, not forgive, but you know what I mean, you sort of accept it more... [01:24:06][63.1]
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Marie Lyon: [01:24:07] You can accept that things happen and I accept that as well.  [01:24:08][1.3]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:24:08] And I think so, because you have to otherwise it's really difficult.  [01:24:11][2.5]
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Marie Lyon: [01:24:12] But this wasn't a mistake, no. [01:24:13][1.1]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:24:13] But even if it was a mistake, every day women are being prescribed ethinylestradiol and norethisterone and the dose of norethisterone that was used is still given now to stop periods if people go on holiday. And I can't put my hand on my heart with the evidence I know, and if someone's got evidence, please write in and let us know that it's a hundred per cent safe for these girls, these women. Like when my children had Roaccutane, my oldest two, for acne, and they had to sign to say they'd have a pregnancy test regularly that they're using contraception, which is absolutely wonderful because Roaccutane can affect the unborn foetus. When I used to prescribe norethisterone, because I did, this was pre-me with the knowledge I have now, for women who didn't want the inconvenience of a period on holiday, never once did I say, make sure you don't get pregnant, are you using a contraception because of the risk on the unborn child? When people get pregnant on the contraceptive pill, I'm not aware that we do anything different. We just say, oh, that's a shame.  [01:25:14][61.0]
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Marie Lyon: [01:25:15] Yes.  [01:25:15][0.0]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:25:15] But it's getting into the DNA still. It doesn't matter on the dose. It still gets in to those receptors. And then when I think about girls who were in their teens being given the contraceptive pill for acne. They don't even need a contraception. What's happening to their cells and their DNA? Because we just don't know and that's where I find there's so many questions like, this is such a tragedy, but what they could have done is put their pens and pencils down and gone, right, let's learn from it. Let's learn what these synthetic chemical hormones are doing in the cells, in the DNA. Because that would be really great to have learned because the abnormalities in the children are exaggerated because they're rapidly dividing cells. But what other abnormalities are there? You know, are there other cancers. There's a programme recently about cancers increasing in younger people.  [01:26:14][58.4]
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Marie Lyon: [01:26:17] Yes, there are, there's a big study in, I think it was Sweden and that said exactly the same and it's frightening to see the increase. But remember you're saying maybe they should have learned from it but they would to have some kind of humanity, compassion and some will to kind of do that and they didn't. They didn't, they just looked at how much they were earning and also to be honest, their own reputations, you know, if someone finds out and realises how they have continued to suppress this evidence and they're still fighting today, don't think they're not.  [01:26:54][36.8]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:26:54] Oh, I'm sure.  [01:26:55][0.6]
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Marie Lyon: [01:26:55] They're still fighting today to stop this coming out. [01:26:57][2.2]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:26:58] Yes, well, sorry, we're talking about it.  [01:27:00][1.4]
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Marie Lyon: [01:27:01] Thank god!  [01:27:02][0.5]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:27:02] Because also the other thing is in the programme, which I hope some of you watch on the Sky News programme, there's some archives with something like 70,000, I don't know if I got the number right, of there's records of people. And you just think every single one of those is it's not just the individual, it's not just their families, but it's the ramifications and you work so hard with your families and we were, we went to the House of Parliament, didn't we, to talk to GPs? [01:27:29][27.1]
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Marie Lyon: [01:27:29] That was great, yeah.  [01:27:30][0.6]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:27:31] And it was really interesting because when we talk about, this is a drug that's still given today, they suddenly start to listen, don't they? [01:27:38][7.5]
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Marie Lyon: [01:27:39] Yeah, but isn't it awful really that we're still at the stage, you know 50 odd years later where these synthetic drugs are still causing harm to women.  [01:27:50][11.2]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:27:51] Yeah,.  [01:27:51][0.0]
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Marie Lyon: [01:27:52] And that's really the message as well.  [01:27:53][1.0]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:27:53] Well, do you remember, do remember when I said to the MPs, it's true though, when I said to them, would you take a drug that has never been tested on your brain, your heart, your kidneys, your liver. It goes into your DNA, it might stop you getting a girl pregnant, but that's the only advantage really. Would you take it?  [01:28:18][24.9]
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Marie Lyon: [01:28:18] Of course they wouldn't.  [01:28:18][0.2]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:28:19] No, of course they wouldn't. And it's really difficult because whenever I mention something negative about the contraceptive pill, as in to say it's a synthetic hormone with risks, various other doctors on social media, I can see them saying, but it's very important because people are going to get pregnant. And I think, well, firstly anything we do in life is choice.  [01:28:38][19.6]
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Marie Lyon: [01:28:39] Of course.  [01:28:39][0.2]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:28:40] You could go out of here and light a cigarette, you're not going to, but if you do, you know, because there's warnings all over that packaging, but it's up to you. But you might see a friend in the street who's been given the contraceptive pill without any knowledge at all, and that's the biggest problem. But also, you don't have to have a contraceptive pill to stop getting pregnant, there are other ways. And I actually read, when I was reading about the history of contraception, you know, all contraception, as in the synthetic hormones, are free. And there was a move to get condoms free as well. And there a male doctor, I can't remember his name, was in the audience. There was a big conference at the British Medical Association and he said, no way should we allow condoms to be free. He said, because it's a, and he made this stupid joke. It's a closed end problem, a solution, as in, the condom is closed end for an open-ended problem, as in people will have sex forever.  [01:29:38][58.7]
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Marie Lyon: [01:29:39] Oh, for goodness sakes.  [01:29:39][0.7]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:29:39] And everyone laughed, I mean I read all the minutes because I go into things in quite a lot of detail. And then they decided they wouldn't make condoms free. And I thought then, what a mistake, actually, because when I was a GP, I worked in quite deprived areas and we used to have little bags and we'd give patients, we weren't supposed to when we'd buy them and we would give them because condoms aren't expensive but if you're on benefits anything is expensive, it's an extra and it doesn't feel right but also doctors get paid for prescribing contraception and I've always been paid the same salary, I've never been a partner but when I realised about the harms of some of the synthetic, like the medroxyprogesterone acetate injection, the long-acting reversible contraceptives, I refused to prescribe them and the doctors didn't like it at all. But I said, I'm not sure that I'm being, this drug is associated with osteoporosis. I don't feel like, what else is it associated with? So there is this incentive and Mirena coils now, we don't know the long term effects, it's a very low dose, but lots of people get paid for them. And in the private world, it's a procedure, so you get paid. So it concerns me that we don't know. But in medicine, it's okay to say to someone, we don't know. So if your doctor all those years ago had said, this is a new pregnancy test. We don't actually know what it's doing. [01:31:11][91.3]
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Marie Lyon: [01:31:12] Yes, we wouldn't have taken that chance because it wasn't important to know immediately. And the other thing that you're saying about the contraceptives and choice, just remember now that Bayer, Bayer Schering, actually went into Westminster and the government agreed to actually allow 16-year-old girls to get the oral contraceptive over the counter. They don't even need to see a GP anymore. Now again, to me, that is just a lack of care for women. You know, oh, well goodness gracious, let them take it. Well, you know, don't think about the things that could happen to those 16-year-old girls who haven't a clue. They just think, oh this is great. Like you say, oh I can stop getting pregnant, but they don't consider the long-term implications. And I mean, we are both working towards the same end, which is to make sure that women are informed. And that they're safe and they can take medicines.  [01:32:09][56.7]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:32:10] Absolutely.  [01:32:10][0.0]
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Marie Lyon: [01:32:11] You know, and that's the good thing that you are working so hard to do it, but people are not listening.  [01:32:16][5.4]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:32:17] No, and that is, you know, we're not here saying no-one can have synthetic hormone contraception, for some women it's their only choice and in whatever their circumstance it might be the, you know... So, but it's just knowledge is really important.  [01:32:29][12.5]
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Marie Lyon: [01:32:30] It is, it's very important.  [01:32:30][0.6]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:32:31] But, but really the Primodos scandal, like hashtag forgotten lives, no one should forget them.  [01:32:38][6.5]
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Marie Lyon: [01:32:38] No.  [01:32:38][0.0]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:32:38] And what you're really pushing for is an apology. [01:32:41][2.8]
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Marie Lyon: [01:32:44] No, an apology means that they made a mistake. They didn't make a mistake, this was deliberate. So no, an apology would not work for me at all. I know that's what I should be saying but no, I don't. This was deliberate, it was sustained. It is sustained today by our current health regulator, which I find appalling, by our own government, which again, I find appalling, and they're allowing this to continue. So women today are not safe unless they actually look behind what the science is, and it's really important. And this is why, as I say with you, and the bioidentical hormones, that's what people should be looking at. Yes, if they want to use these particular methods, fine, but make sure that they are the best that you can get.  [01:33:32][47.8]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:33:33] Absolutely. So we need to end with three, well, it's always three tips, but I'm going to say three things that need to happen that are not an apology to move the conversation forward, to stop the uncertainty. I think this has been a wonderful conversation and it's a lot for people to take on board. It is fact what we're saying and it is important for people to just think and reflect of it because we don't want anything like this to happen again.  [01:34:02][28.7]
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Marie Lyon: [01:34:03] And it will.  [01:34:04][0.6]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:34:04] And it will and it is really because the drug is still available.  [01:34:07][3.1]
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Marie Lyon: [01:34:08] It is available.  [01:34:08][0.3]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:34:10] So what three things, if you were the prime minister or if you were the head of the health service, if you had power, you do have power in some ways, but the power that you want, what three things would you want to happen?  [01:34:23][13.0]
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Marie Lyon: [01:34:26] I would want all testing of drugs to be independent, not from the drug company because we know that that actually can be falsified. I would want to make sure that every single drug that's on the market now is retested because it's not just new drugs, we've got to look at the drugs that are already available and I would I also like to make sure that young women are educated about what is and isn't good for them and what they can use and what they should be wary of. It's just really making sure that people are aware that these things are happening. It's not a one-off. Ours is unique because ours is the only one that was there purely for profit but it still happens anyway. There are still profits being made on every single drug that comes into this country and I would definitely sack the regulators.  [01:35:22][56.4]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:35:24] Well, there we go. Let's hope that you have some, but we have to change. So we have to do more and you've been working for decades on this, Marie, and you're full of determination and strength. And I, I want to help you so that people can have that knowledge. And I want people to feel cross after this podcast.  [01:35:41][17.9]
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Marie Lyon: [01:35:42] Oh good, get them to watch Bitter Pill then they'd be really cross.  [01:35:45][3.3]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:35:45] Anger changes things and we need change.  [01:35:45][0.0]
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Marie Lyon: [01:35:48] And we do and we need the public behind us, you know, because that's where it actually starts to... [01:35:53][5.4]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:35:54] To make a difference. So thank you so much for coming all the way down for this today. So thank so much.  [01:36:00][6.1]
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Marie Lyon: [01:36:00] No, thank you. A pleasure.  [01:36:01][1.0]
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Dr Louise Newson: [01:36:02] Thank you. [01:36:02][0.0]